Today's Take Note interview is from the Democracy Works podcast, a collaboration between WPSU and the McCourtney Institute for Democracy at Penn State. The Institute's Jenna Spinelle interviewed Michael Rebell.
Recent elections and the January 6, 2021 U.S. Capitol insurrection have underscored worrisome trends in the present state of our democracy: the extreme polarization of the electorate, the dismissal of people with opposing views, and the widespread acceptance and circulation of one-sided and factually erroneous information. Only a small proportion of those who are eligible actually vote, and a declining number of citizens actively participate in local community activities.
In "Flunking Democracy," Michael Rebell makes the case that this is not a recent problem, but rather that for generations now, America’s schools have systematically failed to prepare students to be capable citizens. In the book and in this interview, he specific recommendations for how the courts can and should address this deficiency. He also talks about his efforts to make those ideas a reality — including petitioning the U.S. Supreme Court later this year.
Emily Reddy
Welcome to Take Note on WPSU. I’m Emily Reddy. Today we’re going to hear about how schools are failing to prepare students with civics education. The guest will be Michael Rebell, Executive Director of the Center for Education Equity and of the National Access Network at Teachers College at Columbia University and a Professor of Law and Educational Practice also at Teachers College at Columbia. His book "Flunking Democracy: Schools, Courts, and Civic Participation" outlines the history of civics education in America and the lack of federal civics education standards.
Today’s interview is from the Democracy Works podcast, a collaboration between WPSU and the McCourtney Institute for Democracy at Penn State. The Institute’s Jenna Spinelle interviewed Rebell.
Jenna Spinelle
Michael Rebell, welcome to Democracy Works. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Michael Rebell
My pleasure, Jenna.
Jenna Spinelle
Civics education relates to so many things that we've talked about on this this podcast over the years and especially recently, things like trusting institutions, equity and inclusion, democratic participation. And in your book "Flunking Democracy," you wrap a lot of those things up in the notion of the Civic Empowerment gap. Can you start off by telling us what that is and how it's playing out today?
Michael Rebell
The basic thesis of my book is that our schools have been flunking democracy for the last 50 or 60 years, because of the lack of attention that's been given to civic preparation for kids. Back in the 50s. And 60s, civic education was taken very seriously many states would offer students have two or three courses in this area. Now, if there's one course that's a lot, but it's more than courses, to really be well prepared for the challenges of citizenship in the 21st century. Students need knowledge, they need civic knowledge, but they need particular skills and areas like media literacy. They need civic experiences to understand how the government works. And they really need to understand democratic values. And we fallen short, in all those areas for a variety of reasons that I do go into in the book.
Jenna Spinelle
Yeah, let's talk about some of those. I'll tell us a little bit about how we got from the place of the, you know, 50s and 60s to where we are today.
Michael Rebell
Well, quite frankly, I think it began with the opposition to the Vietnam War and the skepticism about governmental institutions that began in those days. But it's been a lot more than that a lot has happened in the last 60 or so years. Some of it has to do with changes in educational policy. The fact that there's been a great emphasis on basic skills, reading and math, and especially with the No Child Left Behind where schools were actually rated on standardized test scores in areas like reading math, to some extent science, but not social studies. And as a result, the statistics show that almost half of the school districts in the country have substantially cut down on the teaching of social studies and civics. So matter of fact, less than 10% of teacher time in elementary school is devoted to the area of social studies. So these these are major problems. But we've also had challenges from changes in our society, changes in technology, things like the internet, social media, which presents a lot of possibilities for young people. But as you know, it also presents a lot of problems. And kids need to be well educated in media literacy, they have to know how to use the internet and social media properly, they have to know how to distinguish accurate from inaccurate information. And the schools have not kept up with keeping this kind of thing. The problems gotten even worse in the last few years with the polarization of society. And I sometimes say to people, this is the worst of times for teaching civic education. Because the country is so polarized, we have all this controversy. And people don't know what teachers don't know, school boards very often just don't know what direction to go into it with the charged atmosphere that young people are growing up in. But it's also more important than ever, precisely for that reason. And the researchers, the practitioners who are really delved into this area, they have come up with what I think a very effective ways of dealing with the challenges in our current environment. And really, what we're trying to do is promote what I call good civics and press upon people how important it is that the schools do their job, right, because our democracy is in peril. And teaching young people to understand their responsibility as citizens and their possibilities as citizens is what's really needed.
Jenna Spinelle
And you argue that it really has to be an outside force or an outside power that needs to change the priorities of schools, as you said, there's a lot of sort of internal conflict among teachers and school boards and those types of things. And you argue that the courts are really the place to look for that change. Tell us more about that in your why you think the courts are really the ones who move things forward here.
Michael Rebell
Well, what I learned when I was doing the research for "Flunking Democracy" was that I wasn't the first person who understood this problem was concerned about it. There are many scholars, many researchers, many, many educators who had been wringing their hands for years about the lack of real attention to civic preparation of kids. And a lot of them came up with really good instructional methodologies. There have been many Commission's that have looked into this and have issued reports that really are on target knowing what we need to be doing. But all of that gets put on the back shed, everybody says, Yes, we should do more about civics. But then there are more important things. And you know, our school system, which really was created primarily for the purpose of preparing young people to be citizens in a democracy. That's what the founders who emphasized the importance of education for democracy, that's what the founders of the common school movement, which was a precursor of public schools, they created schools, because they knew that and Benjamin Franklin put it, a republic, if you can keep it, we can only survive as this thriving democracy, if citizens if voters understand how government works and what their role in it is. But the point is, people accept that as a truism. But then they think, well, schools have to prepare us for the workplace. They have to prepare kids for getting good jobs. And they do that's true, but not to the extent that we totally put on the back burner, the responsibility to also prepare kids for civic responsibility. So that's why I came to the conclusion that educators, by and large, those who are focused on this, they know what can be done, there are good curricula out there, but people don't pay attention to it. It's not a priority. So that led me to believe that the way to make it a priority is to bring it to the fore. And the way our system works, people pay a lot of attention when there's a major statement by the highest court in the state, but certainly by the highest court in the country. And I think if the US Supreme Court were to come down with a decision that says there is a right to proper civic preparation in the schools, or right both for individual students, and really for our society at large. This is what we need today. That would have a galvanizing effect that would really make people understand how civic education needs to be a priority in 21st century
Jenna Spinelle
And I want to come back to that the prospects for the Supreme Court maybe where that might go. But can you talk a little bit about some of the legal foundation or the legal framework upon which something like this might be built or you know, some of the cases that you've pointed to in your your work that get us here?
Michael Rebell
Well, there are two major decisions of the US Supreme Court dealing with education that have had a profound impact on our society, ever since the 50s. If that's the starting point, in our discussion these days, the first of course, was Brown versus Board of Education. And as I think just about everybody knows that it's the landmark case that outlawed racial discrimination, racial segregation in the schools. But there was a follow up case to brown about 20 years later, the Rodriguez case, Rodriguez had to do with fair funding. By the time that case was brought, there was substantial progress in many areas in the Deep South, in integrating the schools physically. But what came to be realized was in many areas, you were putting poor white children into buildings with poor black children, but none of them had sufficient resources, sufficient opportunities for getting quality education. So there was a real push for fair funding for equalizing funding. And as many of your listeners are aware, I'm sure, in our country, over the generations, we've built the financing system for education, to a large extent a local property taxes, which means if you happen to live in a property poor district, you're a real disadvantage in getting enough resources for education. And ironically, those property poor districts are usually the ones that have the neediest kids. So our system over the years, has perpetuated a situation where those with the greatest needs have the fewest resources. That's the issue that came to the US Supreme Court in 1973. In this Rodriguez case, and quite frankly, to the surprise of many people at the time, the court said, yes, there's a great inequity here. And the kids in the poor district are at a real disadvantage. But despite brown talking about how important education is, they said, There's nothing not a word in the US Constitution about education. It's not a federal issue, we're going to leave it to the states. That was a very close five, four decision. And it's had a profound impact. It meant that the federal government was going to do nothing about equalizing fair funding. And it's also meant they've been hands off in other areas. Sometimes when education intersects with free speech and issues like that the courts will get involved but on quality of education, funding of education, the Supreme Court said we're leaving it to the states. And as I explained in "Flunking Democracy," in the area of social studies, civics education, leaving it to the states means a hodgepodge of reaction and low priority in most states.
Jenna Spinelle
And so you have, as I understand it, you took this forward in Rhode Island last year, tell us about that, and sort of where things go from here.
Michael Rebell
You know, if you're a lawyer looking for reform, you look for a place where the facts are clear. And unfortunately, Rhode Island was a place that has, in my mind, one of the worst civic education systems in the country. At the time, we brought the case, they did not require any civics in the schools, they had no way of assessing where the kids had learned any civic values. Symbolically, I think it was very interesting that the position of social studies coordinator in the State Education Department had remained unfilled for five years. So it was a very low priority there. And when we went to Rhode Island and asked people whether they thought this kind of case would be important, whether there would be support for it, there was really an outpouring of support. First meeting, I went through there, we had over 100 groups and individuals. So it seemed to be the right place to bring the case. And and we did, and we got a very interesting decision from the federal district court where the case was first heard back in 2020, I guess it was. Judge William Smith, who was the chief judge of the federal district court there heard the case gave it a lot of attention, I must say. The day we had the argument we had about 50 young people in the courtroom. We have 14 plaintiffs in the case they're young people from throughout the state. All ages, they range from high school seniors to a newborn that was a few months old. The mother said I'm joining this case because they take a while but I want my daughter to have a good solid civics education when the time comes, anyhow, we not only had the most of the plaintiffs, but a lot of them brought their friends. So we had about 50 people in the class of young people in the classroom. And the judge walked in. And the first thing he did was greet the students. And he said, you're going to get a great lesson on civics today. And he gave it to them, we had an argument for about an hour and a half, which is unusual in a federal court. Anyway, to make a long story short, we had a really interesting result from this, the judge took an extraordinary amount of time to issue the decision when it came out. It was about 50 pages. And it is the most persuasive, the most convincing statement of how important civic education is in modern times that I think I've ever read. And the judge says quite clearly that American democracy is in peril. And it is really important that the schools pay attention to civic education, a thank the students for bringing this important case, and said, We from the older generation, have to listen to their plea, that something has to be done to improve this system. But after saying all of that, and producing this document that quite frankly, I hand to anybody who's interested in the area, because it was so well done. He nevertheless said, the court, I feel is incapable of doing what the plaintiffs want of issuing an order to improve the system. I basically said I'm pleading with the governor and the legislature to do something about this, but the court won't. And it was because he read a lot of the precedents, the Supreme Court cases and all as not being fully supportive of the arguments we're making. And there is ambiguous language and those, but quite frankly, he set the stage for bringing more than we did appeal to the US Circuit Court and the New England area. And they affirmed the case and said the same thing this judge said which is this is a really important issue. But the existing Supreme Court precedents stand in the way of arguing anything. So that's why at the present time, we are going to file a petition asking the Supreme Court to take the case, because they're the only ones can issue a clear statement that's needed in this area.
Emily Reddy
If you’re just joining us, you’re listening to Take Note on WPSU. I’m Emily Reddy. The guest is Michael Rebell, a Columbia professor and author of the book "Flunking Democracy." Today’s interview is from the Democracy Works podcast, a collaboration between WPSU and the McCourtney Institute for Democracy at Penn State. Interviewer Jenna Spinelle talked to Rebell about the challenges of civics education in schools.
Jenna Spinelle
The cynical part of my brain goes to ways that in the realm of politics, some of this might get corrupted, or might drift away from those ideals that you were just articulating. You know, whether it's something like the 1776 Commission, or we're also seeing books being banned from libraries, or I just wonder if there's a universe in which a decision like this could be used as a means to justify some of those things that we might consider to be anti-democratic. And if that's something that's weighing into how you're approaching your work?
Michael Rebell
Well, like anything can be distorted. But you know, you you talk about the 1776 Commission, which was looking at things from one might say, traditional conservative point of view. You know, and that's why I have some confidence, that with the right inspiration, people in the local level, can look at both of these trends and say, "look, the United States was founded on some of the most beautiful, inspired principles of liberty and equality that I've ever seen been seen on this earth." That's what over time did lead to real progress. It led to the abolition of slavery. It's the basis for our civil rights movement. Those values are really important at the center of what binds us as a nation. But at the same time, we have to be cognizant that there are a lot of negative experiences in our history. And certainly, if we're going to have a democracy that binds together people from different diverse backgrounds, the country has to give more recognition to the impact that slavery has had, and continuing Jim Crow and other discrimination. So somehow, each community has to work out an amalgam of this. How do we put these particular experiences that different groups have had? Some negative, some very negative, some some positive. How do we put them together with the fundamental constitutional norms that are still the strength of American democracy?
Jenna Spinelle
I want to talk a little bit about public support here. I think even in the couple of years since "Flunking Democracy" has come out we've seen education become a part of the culture war in a way that it wasn't and you started to get to some of this with polarization. And we can point to perhaps Glenn Youngkin's win in in Virginia, where he ran on education as a as a sole issue and the role of parents and it's all this kind of big morass that's out there. How do you think about what role public support plays here? Or are you worried at all about a division between what people seem to say they want and where things are heading as far as the courts?
Michael Rebell
Let me back up a minute and talk about how this relates to our lawsuit. If you don't mind. One of the first questions I got from the federal judges was, what are you asking us to do? Do you want the federal courts to take over the curriculum in the schools and instruct them about exactly what they should be teaching about civics? And our answer is, No, we agree. education in America is primarily a local issue. We very much value participation, local school boards, and all, what we need is for the federal government to just say, kids have a right to this and send it back to the court and Rhode Island, send it back to all the states and say you've got a responsibility to do this. And you'll have to do it in accordance with local priorities, local educational methods, but you've got to do it. And you've got to show results. So this is that old adage about "Let a thousand flowers bloom," that's what we're looking for. And you know, if we're ever going to overcome this polarization, it's got to be by conversations beginning at the local level, because the problem of polarization is people don't see each other as humans, they see each other as enemies. And when you deal with these kinds of issues on the national level, it's hard to break through that. I understand members of Congress who used to go out to lunch with people from the other parties, socialize with them and all they hardly speak to each other in the halls of Congress or out of the halls. But people who are attending local school board meetings, people who are getting involved with their local education systems are dealing with their neighbors. And yes, there are going to be big divisions but this so much more potential there for people having meaningful conversations, for listening to what the other side has to say. And this is what we have to teach our children in the classroom. One of the problems with civic education over the years has been teachers tend to shy away from instructing students on controversial issues on bringing controversial issues into the classroom. But that's precisely what we need to do today, we've got to teach kids that yes, there are great disagreements and our diversity and our differences and backgrounds create more of these differences. But that's precisely why schools have to give student experiences and instruction in how to have a respectful conversation with somebody with whom you disagree, how to be tolerant to that extent, that's an opportunity for school boards for educators, for local policymakers, for politicians to realize that rather than exploiting this in a negative way, there's a positive potential here. And that's what we've got to take advantage of. And that's what the result of a galvanizing Supreme Court case will be. I think it'll inspire people to take advantage of the power of the local involvement in education. And I'll point to the fact that Chief Justice John Roberts, but you know, every year the chief justice issues an annual report to the judiciary that summarizes the past year and looks forward to what needs to be done. And two years ago, Chief Justice Roberts wrote a really powerful annual report that focused 100% on civic education, and talked about how important it was for the maintenance of our constitutional values. Now, he was talking to the federal courts, he gave examples of some courts that were doing great work and bringing high school students into the courthouse to learn about the rule of law to see how judges operate. And he really pleaded with other courts throughout the country to do similar things. I guess what we're asking, Chief Justice Roberts and the other members of the court to do is extend that further because they can have a huge influence not only inspiring judges to invite high school kids in to the courthouse, which they should. But if John Roberts if the Supreme Court majority, and if we can get a majority that comes from what people see as the liberal justices and the conservative justices, I think they can all unite on saying, we need to bring this country together, we've got to discuss how we understand all the strands of our history. The essence of American democracy is the U.S. Constitution.
Jenna Spinelle
You bringing up John Roberts there made me think about the organization iCivics, which was founded by former Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, you also write in your book about people like Peter Levine and Daniel Allen, who are involved in a project called Educating for American Democracy that's that's looking at this maybe more from a grassroots or teacher led focus. I know there's also the Civics Secures Democracy Act in Congress, which I believe was going to be reintroduced this coming year. So how do you see efforts like that working with the legal route you're taking? Is this a multi pronged approach? Or does everybody sort of have a role to play here?
Michael Rebell
Certainly everybody has a role to play. And I'm glad you brought up those examples of great things that are out there. The Educating for American Democracy Act provides curriculum materials, not a curriculum. But ways that local communities can try to understand these various strands of our traditions of our values and put them together. They don't take a liberal or conservative view. They respect both. So that's precisely the point. I'm trying to emphasize that we have these wonderful writings, we have these things available. And we've got to bring to the fore the importance of every local community, taking advantage of them. And the bill currently pending in Congress, which would provide I think, about a billion dollars worth of funding for local school districts to promote civics. Yes, I think that's really important, too. You've got to have resources to do this job right. So the resources are potentially there. The materials to have these kinds of conversations in the classroom, in the school boards, they're there. But people need to be more aware of them. They need to be inspired and motivated to really use these things properly. And I think groups like iCivics that are making this point that are spreading the world around the country are doing a great job, and I hope we'll be able to convince the Supreme Court to add their voice, which will be incredibly important voice that will really get the message across if they're willing to speak and that like.
Jenna Spinelle
Given the current makeup of the court, I mean, how are you feeling about the prospects that I guess one that they'll agree to hear the case, and that you might end up with a decision that you're hoping for?
Michael Rebell
Well, you know, as I say, people talk about this being a very conservative court, etc, etc. But as I mentioned earlier, civics is not a liberal or a conservative issue. And Chief Justice Roberts has certainly made it clear that he understands the importance of preparing young people understanding and acting on constitutional values. Many of the other justices, Justice Sotomayor has taken over to chair iCivics, the group that you mentioned, since Sandra Day O'Connor retired from that. Justice Gorsuch, for instance, has been very outspoken on the importance of civic education. Last year, he wrote a book called "A Republic, If You Can Keep It," quoting that Ben Franklin phrase. So I'm hopeful that, you know, by example, this Supreme Court can get beyond the polarized political values, and say, you know, we're liberal or conservative in our personal views, but we're all Americans. And we understand the importance of bringing our young people together, and overcoming the current challenges to democracy, and moving aside to a much more American values path.
Jenna Spinelle
And that last question here for you, Michael, what is the timeline for moving all this forward to the Supreme Court?
Michael Rebell
We're going to be filing what's called a petition for cert and May or June. And then the court usually takes a couple of months to decide whether they're going to take a case, they do take very few cases, I understand that. But we're hoping we can build support for this. And the more people like you let us tell the folks out there, how important it is, the more people may write letters to the editor, the more amicus briefs, we may get supporting the case, the buzz about it makes a difference. So if people think this is a cause worth supporting, we'd appreciate your talking it up.
Jenna Spinelle
Well, Michael, thank you so much for all of your work in this area. And thanks for joining us today to talk about it.
Michael Rebell
It's my pleasure. And thank you for your attention and your interest in this important area.
Emily Reddy
Michael Rebell is a Professor of Law and Educational Practice at Teachers College at Columbia University. Rebell is also the Executive Director of the Center for Educational Equity and the National Access Network, also at Teachers College at Columbia University. Today’s interview is from the Democracy Works podcast, a collaboration between WPSU and the McCourtney Institute for Democracy at Penn State. Jenna Spinelle was the interviewer. You can hear more Take Note and Democracy Works interviews at wpsu.org/radio. I’m Emily Reddy, WPSU.
