Catherine Wanner is a professor of history, anthropology and religious studies at Penn State. She was recently in Ukraine as a Fulbright Scholar, completing a book on the politics of religion in Russia and Ukraine, "Everyday Religiosity and the Politics of Belonging in Ukraine," which will come out this year. Wanner spoke with WPSU’s Anne Danahy about the standoff between Ukraine and Russia.
Here is their conversation:
Anne Danahy
Cathy Wanner, thank you so much for talking with us.
Catherine Wanner
Thank you, Anne. It's a delight to be here.
Anne Danahy
The conflict between Russia and Ukraine is in the headlines in the United States right now. But in some ways, it's not new, right? How does what's happening now, with Russia amassing troops at the border, fit in historically to relations between the two countries?
Catherine Wanner
Well, Ukraine achieved independence in 1991, when the Soviet Union collapsed. This was really the fourth attempt to achieve an independent state. And the vote was overwhelmingly in favor of independence in 1991. So it's part of a prolonged effort, especially over the course of the 20th century, to have an independent state.
Anne Danahy
You've spent a considerable amount of time in Ukraine even before this most recent visit. From your connections, the people that you've worked with and talk with, do you have a sense of what the sentiment is for everyday people?
Catherine Wanner
Oh, I think there's overwhelmingly a greater commitment to orienting towards the European Union, as opposed to the Eurasian Customs Union that Mr. Putin and other countries of the former Soviet Union have created as a political economic trade entity. And I think, in judging forms of governance, I think there is a strong preference for not embracing Mr. Putin's style of government and sticking with their own, however, inadequate or or disappointing it might be at times.
Anne Danahy
You have a book coming out, "Everyday Religiosity and the Politics of Belonging in Ukraine." And you were actually in Ukraine when the COVID-19 pandemic hit. What role does religion play in the conflict between the two countries?
Catherine Wanner
Well, for example, for about 350 years, Ukraine has been under the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate. So in other words, they were in a common religious political space. But one of the things that makes this a hybrid war is one of the ways in which Ukrainians were able to attempt to retaliate against these incursions into Ukraine was to declare, and actually achieve, get recognized their own independent church that is separate and distinct from the Russian Orthodox Church. Approximately one-third of all of the church buildings of the Russian Orthodox Church are in Ukraine. And earlier, it used to be higher still, almost up to one half. But there's been tremendous church-building in Russia to try to compensate for the loss of those, or the perceived fear that there they were going to lose those buildings. And this is one of the reasons that also make this very much of a hybrid war, where sort of institutional machinations on the level of of religion become a weapon, a weapon that the less powerful can unleash against those who actually have the kinds of weapons in the form of guns and tanks.
Anne Danahy
And a key part of this conflict is whether Ukraine would ever join NATO, and Putin has said that in the 1990s, the West promised that NATO would not expand eastward. NATO countries, of course, have different interpretations of that. But it seems like in all of this, that what Ukraine wants, and what's good for the people of Ukraine gets completely lost.
Catherine Wanner
I think that is true. In the same breath, I do think it's clear what Ukrainian people want, I think they would very much like to live in a more stable, more prosperous democratic country. And the question is how best to achieve that. And I think for someone such as Mr. Putin and some of the other authoritarian rulers in the region, there's a powerful disincentive to have neighboring countries prove that it is possible via the rule of law or via democratically elected leaders to reform politically and economically, the country such that the oligarchs would not have such a strong hold on the reins of power.
Anne Danahy
So that people in their countries might look over and say, "Oh, well, look at the freedom that is working in Ukraine. Why can't we have that?
Catherine Wanner
That's correct. I mean, of course, the Baltics have done quite well, but they were quickly incorporated into the European Union. Ukraine, of course, neighbors Poland, Slovakia, you know, Romania, Bulgaria and of course sees those countries as, you know, having shared — granted it's not as long an experience with Soviet style socialism — but nonetheless, they're coming out of that same period and things are slowly — once again, I think if you're living in those countries you wish it was, everything was going faster and better. But still, for many Ukrainians looking across the border, when they look across the border to Eastern Europe, they see a more attractive picture than when they look across the border to Russia.
Anne Danahy
And as someone who has worked and lived over there, are you worried about what could happen, just personally?
Catherine Wanner
I'm really tremendously worried. I think any kind of invasion would be catastrophic, literally, even an incursion and allowing these kinds of incursions to continue to happen. And I think sadly, there's a real a demonstrated pattern of these low level incursions, which are nonetheless highly destabilizing, but they allow them, the Western countries and NATO member countries, to perhaps not react in a kind of a fully engaged way. It leaves Western powers with the possibility of not necessarily reacting and certainly not reacting militarily. So no one really comes to the aid of a country like Ukraine that has a handful of casualties every single day. But if you are a developing country to begin with, and you have casualties every single day and you are fighting in the armed combat, to hold your borders every single day for you know, seven years now, this is enormously destabilizing and massively slows down any kind of progress that could be made, either economically, politically or educationally, any other which way. It's a masterful strategy that yields high dividends for Mr. Putin and allows for the rest of the world to turn away and not really react. But if you can do it once, twice, three times, four times, five times, how many times might one continue to do this?
Anne Danahy
Cathy Wanner, thank you so much for talking with us.
Catherine Wanner
Thank you. It's delightful to be here.
