Please join the Democracy Works team welcoming a special guest host for this episode. Cyanne Loyle is an associate professor of political science and international affairs at Penn State and a global fellow at the Pease Research Institute Oslo. Her research focuses on transitional justice and democratic rebuilding after conflict, which makes her the perfect person to reflect on South Africa's democratic transition.
One additional programming note — Chris Beem lost power during this recording so the closing segment is Loyale and Jenna Spinelle reflecting on the interview.
At the end of April, South Africa marked the 30th anniversary of its first post-Apartheid election — the first in the country where everyone could vote. South African writer and scholar Antjie Krog join us for a look at the state of South African democracy today, the impact of the country's Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and how South Africa has served as a model for other countries in democratic transition.
Krog is a South African writer, scholar, and activist. She covered the Truth and Reconciliation Commission for the South African Broadcasting Corporation and wrote about the experience in the book "Country of My Skull."
She has published more than a dozen volumes of poetry and translated Nelson Mandela's biography into Afrikaans. She is currently a professor at the University of the Western Cape.
Episode Transcript
Chris Beem
From the McCourtney Institute for Democracy at Penn State University, I'm Chris Beem.
Jenna Spinelle
I'm Jenna Spinelle, and welcome to Democracy Works. This week, we are talking about the 30th anniversary of South Africa's first fully democratic election, post apartheid. So a bit of a departure from the topics in American politics that we typically cover on the show, but an anniversary that is worth considering, for reasons that I know we'll get into. But to help us in this conversation, we are thrilled to have with us our Penn State colleague Cyane Layale, who is an associate professor of political science and international affairs Cyanne, welcome to the show. So glad to have you with us today.
Cyanne Loyale
Thanks so much, Jenna. And, Chris, it's really a pleasure to be here. As Jenna mentioned, I'm a Professor of Political Science and International Affairs here at Penn State and have been looking at the issues of democracy and reconciliation in South Africa for a number of years now. But my research focuses mostly on post conflict transitions. So thinking about what happens after the end of violence. And I've done a lot of work and thinking and writing about the ways in which to make those transitions successful. So in South Africa, one of the things we're going to talk about today, I'm sure is the Truth and Reconciliation Commission that was really central to helping both white and black South Africans navigate some of the kind of post conflict and post transition, kind of growing pains into a new democracy.
Jenna Spinelle
Yeah. And before you come back in Chris, I should also tell everybody, we're also going to hear in the interview from Antjie Krog, who is a South African writer, and poet and scholar and journalist and was, she covered the Truth and Reconciliation Commission for the South African Broadcasting Corporation and wrote the book, country of my skull about that experience and so many other things. So a wealth of expertise today to talk about this very important topic.
Chris Beem
South Africa has a really interesting case. And, you know, there's always something to be learned when you when you are looking more in depth at one nation but but South Africa matters to democracy and matters to democracy right now. You know, it's been a while since we made the, our obligatory How Democracies Die reference. But at the end of that book, Levitsky and Ziblatt taught say that, you know, the, the problem we confront ourselves with is that there has never yet really been a genuinely equal democracy, multi ethnic, multiracial, and also genuinely equal,
Cyanne Loyale
I think, Chris, one of the things that draws me to South Africa, as a country, and as a case for thinking about democracy is survival, but also democracy, death is actually how successful it has been, right? So many people in 1994, were deeply concerned about the prospects of civil war of revolt or revolution from either the white or the black population. And while we're going to talk a lot today about the challenges that South Africa has faced, we have not seen democratic collapse.
Chris Beem
And, you know, it is, can we start with just a, you know, couple paragraphs about the history of South Africa, you know, how was colonized, how it was kind of built on to Western cultures, Dutch and British anyway, I mean, you're the expert. So I mean, you know, just to give people kind of a background about apartheid and, and what happened 30 years ago.
Cyanne Loyale
I mean, so the history of South Africa is a long and complicated history. But it's worth noting that it's an area that's very culturally diverse, ethnically diverse, it's very rich in natural minerals and diamonds in oil and the story of South Africa, at least, when it comes to understanding apartheid really begins with the colonization of the area by Dutch immigrants. They took over the land from a number of indigenous tribes that had been in the area for for since since the dawn of human history, the British eventually became economically interested in the area and fought a civil war with the Dutch and one. So the there's both British and Dutch influence, colonial influence in the area.
Cyanne Loyale
But it wasn't until kind of after that conflict had ended, that the government really started to think about how best or the colonial governments or to think about how best to, to rule over an overwhelmingly large minority, black and colored population. I just want to kind of flag for listeners that when we use the terms white, black and colored on the podcast today, those are the political terms that are used in South Africa today. So those are the kind of politically correct ways to be referencing those racial categories that were that were designed under Apartheid. So the the political system that the government came up with in order to kind of keep control over this large African indigenous population was a system of apartheid. And that was the separation of white, black and colored South Africans from each other. It involved the creation of townships of segregated education have segregated jobs, and really concentrated the power both economically and politically within the whites in the country.
Cyanne Loyale
It was a deal that was struck between the British and and the Dutch, in order to or the what had ended up becoming the Afrikaner population between the the British and the Afrikaners, to really maintain control over the country. Apartheid lasted for decades. And it wasn't until 1994, that we saw the overthrow of that regime after a rough a white referendum two years before that encouraged the current apartheid government to negotiate with the then very strong opposition party, the ANC led by Nelson Mandela.
Chris Beem
It's worth saying that South Africa, you know, no one gives up power willingly or, you know, with equanimity, they really had no choice. And, you know, part of that was, you know, the domestic leadership of people like Mandela and Steven Biko and, you know, and a variety of other, you know, African leaders, but it was also an international international pressure, right. I mean, when I was in college, there was, you know, big talk and actions, you know, campus action about divesting from South Africa. There were, you know, lots of, you know, protest songs about ink and a place in city, which was plays in South Africa and Peter Gabriel have a song about Pico and, and then the other thing is that the Cold War ended. So the the claim of South African White government that they were a beachhead against communism, became less tenable.
Chris Beem
And anyway, as a result, all this the, the white government basically gave up that, you know, the ANC was made the African National Congress, which was the, you know, African party in South Africa, was made legal, Nelson Mandela was released from prison after 27 years, I think it's something revealing just a ridiculous amount of time. And then you that led to 1994, and the first election where everybody had a vote.
Cyanne Loyale
So I think, you know, we talk about South African democracy, and we talk about two days or three days of voting and really long lines. But I think it's worth remembering that the process of democratization in South Africa took many years, right, so we can start at 9090, for example, when Nelson Mandela was released from prison, and really began aggressively negotiating with on behalf of the ANC with the apartheid government about what a potential democratic transition would look like. We can go back decades before that when we think about the struggle of activists like Aki Krug, who were advocating for kind of human rights representation and equality, way, way earlier on, there are so many kind of heroes and inspirational people who were involved in the process.
Cyanne Loyale
But one of the components of of this negotiation that took place between 1990 and 1994, was wrestling with exactly these questions, Chris, which is how does a country that has been so divided and so ignorant of each other for so long, kind of come together to form a democracy in which need to find common good and common ground and a greater understanding of people. One of the ideas that was then put forward was this was the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. And the idea behind the commission was that people were going to come forward all over the country from all different backgrounds and talk about the experiences that they had had with Apartheid.
Jenna Spinelle
We also talk about the media in the interview as well, and the way that the media landscape has changed and whether something like the TRC could happen today whether it was a particular moment in time, but yes, lots to talk about in this interview. So let's get to it. Here is my conversation with Antjie Krog.
Jenna Spinelle
Antie Krog, welcome to Democracy Works. Thank you for joining us today.
Antjie Krog
Pleasure.
Jenna Spinelle
So you are here at Penn State to talk about the 30th anniversary of the first first election in South Africa for which there was full participation after the end of apartheid. And as a way to get into that I wonder if you Just describe that day or as I understand that the election took place over a few days. What was the atmosphere? Like from from what you can recall? How was there a sense of excitement in the air or, or how were people feeling about it?
Antjie Krog
I think the excitement started in 1990, when Nelson Mandela was released, when the ANC was unbanned. There was a lot of excitement because it was as if myths were coming alive, you knew about the names, but you've never seen the people. You've never heard them, you don't know what they said, because they were all banned. And suddenly, there they all were. So the excitement was already then that we are on the road to the end of something on the road on the road to something wonderfully new. And when they started to draft the interim constitution in order to in the end guide the election, there were a lot of mishaps. There's the assassination of Chris Harney. And lots of killing more people were killed between 1990 and 1994, then in the past 30 years from 9060, to 9090. So it's it was a vicious time. But it was time also of unity, or for people who wanted something new. So, but it was always fraught, you never knew what the Army because the White Army was completely in control. The white police very effective police force was completely in control. The Civil Service are there, the country was run by the old political party by a white bot.
Antjie Krog
And you knew that they were working with particular Black groups, in order to proof that black people kill other black people. So don't think you are safe because you're white, because they don't even care for their own people. So it was turmoil. It was fraught, so we were all nervous. But then that day, was like, we saw the best face of ourselves. Right from the beginning. And I remember about everyone went to vote, where you could mix with other people, so not necessarily in your own area where we're only white people could vote. But we went out to the township to vote there. And then, because some of the voting stations didn't work well, in the township, buses of people were so it was a mixture. And singing, and it was a it was a wonderful moment.
Jenna Spinelle
Yeah. And so if you think about the that sort of high point moment that you described in in 94, with this, you know, feeling of unity, that kind of celebratory aspect, where where do things stand now? And what has the trajectory over the past 30 years, been like as as far as the the strength or the health of democracy in the country?
Antjie Krog
I would say that, that maybe we we were not vigilant enough. Maybe we were too trusting, maybe we were not changing sufficiently. But we all believe that we will muddle through in a way you know, there will be things working out here and things falling apart there. But in the end, we will we will, we will get through. But where we are now is a so close to disaster. That the question is often being asked for how long will this piece what why? Why are South Africans not at each other's throats? Why are we not the war makers of one of these terrible wars? Why is it not happening there? And you must remember, the the the war between white and black has been suspected, right from 1994 when the whole world came to South Africa to see the election and see how it's going to become a crisis. And then the killing happened in Rwanda and not with us.
Antjie Krog
So it's been expected for now for so why isn't it happening. And we are being described as a failed state, the poverty is worse than ever. The inequality is worse than ever. In one way, I want to say if you, South Africans live cheek to cheek with poverty, we see it on a daily daily basis. Not once, but all the time, you're aware of the poverty, the hunger and the suffering. But the fact that you live in parts of America, or that you live in Sweden, or that you live in Cape Town, expensive, you don't see that does not mean it does not exist. And it does not mean it's not coming from you as well. So the one of the many problems South Africa has is that the context is a Western capitalist context. And everyone wants to live like the people we see on TV. We want safe houses, we want fridges full of food, we want a smart carafe with whiskey. We all want that. But in fact, the world cannot sustain it. So some people have to Maggie protect what they have, and deprive the others. So that tension that we live with is actually a worldwide tension. So when people go in boats to Europe, when people crossed walls in America, I say yes, yes. Because how else will we get a more equal planet?
Jenna Spinelle
You know, when you say that, I think about the kind of law and order messaging that's very common among the American right, like, we need more police, we need to, you know, get here, it's more, you know, homelessness and issues to do with with immigration. But, you know, I wonder if there's a similar response of a sense to have, you know, more justice or as a way to increase some of this protectionism or some nativism or you know, these sorts of things and in response to growing violence,
Antjie Krog
Here, you can depend on a functioning civil service with us, you cannot the police is famously incompetent, they are behind in all So, people have to do their own security and they do amazing tools have been discovered and invented of how to prevent this, how to do that even even the thieves, you know, you have these cameras that pick you up, when you when a live person is at the gate that camera pick you up what they do the thieves is they take an umbrella, so, that it you cannot be depicted as a and then like two little holes, so that you can see where you going, but the camera cannot betray you. Anyway. So, we everyone has to look after their own security, people are looking also after their own education, the education system has terribly, has failed, failed, failed failed generations of people and people are working in clusters in order to assist one another.
Antjie Krog
So you have suddenly big farms, but they have a small town of workers with two good schools with own medical help with you know, transport, medical, service, pension, etc. So, you have that. So, people are also looking after one another in particular ways. Same with art as my heart is broken about art because that my country is bursting with talent. I mean, we have at university you will have an ordinary talented, competent talent competition and you cannot believe what you see what you hear the quality of of, of the poems, the quality of the rappers, the quality of the dancers of the singers. But we have to sponsor them ourselves. We have to cater them ourselves. So in that sense, no one is asking any thing more from the state except electricity and water. And even the electricity has now becomes such such a problem that most people go off the grid. So you have to provide your own. So water is the next thing. People have now boreholes in the near their homes so that they can use their own water. The other thing is sewerage. It's just a huge, huge mess. And so yeah, it's those the practical things that have become a problem that ordinary people cannot you cannot solve it yourself.
Jenna Spinelle
What you're describing is a cautionary tale to our listeners, not just in the US, but but around the world. I want to shift gears here a little bit in and talk about the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which which you covered for South African broadcasting and wrote about in your book country of my skull, which we'll link to in the show notes, but for listeners who are not familiar with the Commission, can you give the broad stroke overview of what it was and what it sought to do?
Antjie Krog
After the release of Nelson Mandela and the ANC, the leaders who had not been elected, so the National Party, the whites were not elected by black people. The ANC is leaders were in exile, they were not elected by black people. So these this group of leaders came together to draft an interim constitution, so that the interim Constitution can guide the election, and then those that are elected will draft a new constitution. So by the end of this process of the interim Constitution before they signed it, there was the question, okay, this is the door. This is the beginning of our democracy. But what will the police do if we tell them after that, we will put you on trial, and you will be punished for all you did of oppression? The same with the army? Will they then protect election? Or will they then sabotage it? So the amnesty clause was added in at the last moment of the interim Constitution, that a body after the election will look into the deeds of the past and give amnesty to people who fully confess and give the order of command and give the detail? So after the election, the new parliament drafted into legislation for a truth commission, this commission was three committees. One for violation of human rights. The other one for reparation, and the third one for amnesty. And those three committees spread out right across the country, and heard testimonies of people who underwent gross violation of human rights. gross violation was kidnapping, tortured, and murder, torture and murder. And others listen to those who ask amnesty. So that process went on for a few years, a final report was written. And it was handed over to Nelson Mandela by Archbishop Desmond Tutu. The although taboo and bakey was then the President who refused to accept it because he was against the findings of the commission.
Jenna Spinelle
And so as you were covering this day to day and maybe even more so as you reflected back, did you did you get the sense that the the message of what was being shared and the and the gravity of those stories got through to people both, then and I guess now I wonder to what extent it's, it's talked about or remembered almost 30 years later.
Antjie Krog
I would say that these stories were were devastating and so devastation, because people knew things were wrong, but but everyone was caught up in its own area or its own unique history, and you knew about that pitch. So for me, personally, and I've read all South African literature and we have two Nobel Prize winners. We have immense storage of good writing, none of that. Absolutely. None of that have prepared me for the depth of the depravity, the width of the depravity that I heard over there. The Truth Commission. A more important aspect is actually we have 11 languages in South Africa. It was the first and the Last body that provided full translation. So people could come in any language and testify.
Antjie Krog
And they were translation. So people were what? In their own tongue in their mother tongue. So that expresses sadness, the detail that could be given was so moving and genuine because no one had to, you know, flee to English cliches, you know, in order to express themselves. It was an IT WAS IT also changed. I mean, he radio, you've listened to radio your whole life. Suddenly, I remember. The second day, there's a story of us on the radio news of a woman who was making tea, and she saw something fell past a window and she went, she went down, it was her son was interrogated and then threw out of the window. Her voice, her voice is on the 11 o'clock news. And you think this has never happened before? And this is, how it should be. How it should be. Yeah, I, I think there were a lot of mistakes make a lot, a lot of mistakes. We can talk about that later. A lot of people tried not to listen, and try to you know, like, we try to, you know, not get fake news, or we hear about the Kardashians and thing you try to avoid that. People tried not to, but there was actually no escape. I mean, all the news stations were carrying that. It was broadcast radio broadcasts at the hearings for 24 hours. Every political program had packages of us. There were books afterwards, there were arts, artworks, I think it blade. It occupied us fully. To some extent.
Antjie Krog
Nowadays, there's so much despair about what is wrong, that there's hardly time to think of those who testified then and whom we all assumed would be helped by the reparation plan, little reparation has been granted by the State. Because the truth commission was not responsible for the implementation of the reparation plan. It was the bullet the state, but the politicians at that stage said listen, we Everyone suffered, everyone is black suffered. So why do we have to pay this? You know, 1000s? What about the rest? No, we so it was huge fights and unhappiness. The people will also not take taken to court with 20,000 applications for amnesty, only 4000. were granted. None of the rest were ever sued. Those who refuse to come to the Commission also didn't come so. But things are falling apart so fast now that you Yeah, it's just one of those things.
Jenna Spinelle
And it seems to me that the commission's work happened really, right at the end of the era of mass media before the internet, before social media, I as you were talking, I was sitting here thinking would would tick tock and meta and Twitter acts or all of these platforms by into caring or making the coverage of it available, making the proceedings available in the same way that your work in the work of countless other journalists and correspondents did back then. I don't know if if you've reflected on that question at all.
Antjie Krog
No, I didn't. But I'm, I'm becoming ice cold as you say it, because can you can you imagine the manipulation and they no one would listen to the news. You only listen to your own, you know silo? Yeah. Yeah. Thank goodness. No one would approach it probably quite different. Because what why South Africa strength commission was became so famous. It did two things for the first time. The one was the testimony of the victims were public was not behind closed doors. The second one was not to give blanket amnesty, but to give in Individual amnesty. So individuals had to come forward, also in public. And that created a completely new dynamic.
Jenna Spinelle
One final question for you. So we think about democracy, we can kind of think about it in terms of democratic institutions, which you've already talked a lot about, and the way that they are failing and have been. But there's also a democratic culture. And I wonder how you would assess the state of people's desire to support the common good, and that element of what makes a democracy apart from institutions.
Antjie Krog
I would say that particular awareness of the common good was as the strongest from 1990 to 1994. When we thought that we could all contribute, you know, the giftedness Jabu Linda Bailey talks about to release the giftedness of a nation. And we thought that we would be able to do that. The fact that we are not killing one another means that it's still there. But it's being eroded by cross materialism. And then that terrible white thing of admiring revenge. So someone like Mandela and two are being seen as fools. I mean, who forgives? I mean, what on earth? What sort of human being are you that you forgive, that you forgive and reconcile? No, you must hate you must revenge you must take and you must stand for your position. It's that aggressive revenge attitude. And that's eats up the country, it eats up that goodwill on the roads, you know? Okay. But then in between us, the MA are these marvelous, marvelous, wonderful acts of kindness.
Jenna Spinelle
And are those those acts of kindness as a source of hope? I know one of the students yesterday asked you, where were you draw hope these days are made from what you described are very bleak conditions and circumstances.
Antjie Krog
Yeah, is is exactly that is the fact that on a daily basis, I am in contact with talent, immense talent, insight, newness, courage. It is an exquisitely beautiful country. It is also in a way a rich country. But it feels that it is crossed by the awful paws of an international context. And I don't I think it's easy to call it whiteness. It's also easy to call it Western. But it's the awful mixture of that when it becomes unregulated greed and, and non caring, non caring, not caring, carrying.
Jenna Spinelle
We have talked a lot about those themes in particular on this show over the years. And as I said, it was it's been fascinating and informative to hear how they translate in doing to a different part of the world that we haven't yet explored. So Andrea, thank you so much for joining us today to help enlighten us.
Antjie Krog
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Jenna Spinelle
All right, everyone, we are back. I hope you enjoyed the interview. And you don't normally hear me on this part of the episode. But unfortunately, Chris lost power as we were recording the back part of the show today. So I'm here with Cyanne and we're going to just debrief a little bit on this interview and on keys work more broadly. So and to kick things off, I'd love to just hear what stood out to you from this conversation.
Cyanne Loyale
Yeah, there was there was so much about this, this interview that really, that really stood out to me. I mean, I think the first thing it does is raise a question, particularly some of Antjie Krog’s more pessimistic views. It raises the question for me about what is a successful transition. So I think that in some ways South Africa is a victim of its own successes, right. It's it's such a great example of, of a political transition that that lacked a lot of the violence that people thought was going to accompany the end of apartheid. I mean, certainly we saw lots of lower level violence, but the kind of widespread civil war that people thought would come didn't happen.
Cyanne Loyale
There has been more economic empowerment and integration across races in South Africa. And certainly we can talk about the the strong moral leadership of a people like Nelson Mandela and, and Bishop Desmond Tutu. But there are real problems. And so I think one of the things that Chris set us up for nicely in the introduction was was talking a little bit about the human component of, of democratic transitions. South Africa had put so much energy and effort into the institutions of democracy, but just for remembering that it really does also hinge on on people in both directions, both the moral leadership of people like Mandela and tutu, but also the potential for for corruption and the derailing of some of these institutions. You know, we've seen this in our own country, but but strong leaders can can really pull institutions in both directions.
Jenna Spinelle
Yeah, and you know, that that human element, I think that's one of the things that's so interesting, about Antjie's work, too, because she is a poet, and because she is a writer and a journalist, it's, you know, maybe a more human centered approach to this work, then a social scientist, or someone who's more of a neutral observer, she's really not afraid to get into that nitty gritty of the the emotions and the vulnerability and how these moments and these transitions make us feel not just the cause and the effect and the process to get there. But all the messy stuff that happens to us as a result of these processes.
Cyanne Loyale
I mean, I think that's absolutely right. I mean, I know you'll you'll link to her book country of my skull in the podcast notes, but, but she's written extensively about her own experience being white in South Africa, and kind of what that has meant for her country of my scholars, it's such a great treatment. It's her journalistic accountings of of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, but she reports on individual stories, I really liked what she said in her interview about the importance of getting to know each other, particularly because such a hallmark of the apartheid system was how effectively it separated racial categories. It really made it difficult for whites and blacks and colors, to get to know each other to understand each other's experiences. And when we think about the importance in a democracy of, of collective good and collective understanding, it really comes from a place of knowing and I think you're totally right, Jenna, I mean, a, a poet is a is a great person to kind of start with, with thinking about those human experiences, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was was so special in that way, because it really forced a social reckoning among people across racial categories with what other people in their country had experienced, and really defined, I think, or redefine the notion of what our country meant, right?
Cyanne Loyale
So what South Africa meant to people, because they had only ever seen kind of one side of the coin, or one side of the die. And in many ways, there's been some great work by a political scientist named Jim Gibson on on kind of South African racial attitudes, post apartheid and one of the things that that Gibson's work gets us to think about is how important learning about each other through the truth commission was, I mean, I think about some of the work that you've done Jenner with with podcasts in the media and how important that media story is to the TRC. Because just having these Commission's wouldn't have done the heavy lifting, of getting people don't really know about it. I think it really was the fact that that the stories were being broadcast on national news every night, right, every morning, it was difficult to kind of move about your day without hearing really horrific stories of human rights abuses, but from a very human perspective.
Jenna Spinelle
And you mentioned at the very beginning of our first segment that your work focuses on post conflict transitions, and you know, what happens after, after political violence and the kind of rebuilding effort, I wonder, have other countries over the past 30 years look to South Africa and the the TRC as a model about how they should should should approach these situations?
Cyanne Loyale
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so the TRC is one of the the kind of institutions that comes up again and again, in post conflict transitions and and democratic transitions as kind of an important starting place. There are some some real critiques, right. So we talked about the the lack of focus on economic issues through the TRC, which arguably was one of the hallmarks of apartheid, right? When you think about things like segregation of education, but also kind of employment opportunities and things like that, and land redistribution, the failure of the TRC to really wrestle with, I don't want to call them lower level issues, but but just different types of violations. Really, I think did not move the country forward as far as it could in terms of setting it up for success. The other concern about the TRC is it really dealt with gross violations of human rights.
Cyanne Loyale
And so it was the real high level violations that were able to receive reparations, and and potentially morally justifiably so. But many other people in South Africa who experienced lower level crimes did not see the same reparations payments, or were kind of addressed in the same way. So as there also was the component of amnesty. And so I think when other countries turn to South Africa, they're thinking very hard about whether or not these different pieces really fit their model.
Jenna Spinelle
So as we bring things to a close here, Cyane I know when when Antjie was here, she was kind of struggling in her own mind between hope and progress and also despair and feelings of failure, perhaps or they definitely regression if, if not failure. So I wonder where where you stand on that spectrum? Maybe not only about South Africa, but you have all these other cases around the world that you study? Are you generally a more hopeful person by nature? If not, where do you draw those those sources of, of hope and inspiration?
Cyanne Loyale
Well, I mean, I think it is a very precarious time for democracy. And certainly, you've covered some of these topics on on the podcast, and we've been thinking a lot about it in the media in the United States. I think that one of the things that is noteworthy or in some ways unique about the South Africa case, is what Aki talks about in terms of being kind of chicken chicken jowl with the poverty and the economic inequality. In South Africa, it's very difficult for more economically affluent South Africans to ignore right the poverty in their country, I think it's easier in places like the United States, to to not see poverty on a daily basis, or, or that level of extreme inequality and poverty.
Cyanne Loyale
That therefore makes it easy for us, I think, to forget that the decisions we make about what cars we buy, and, and clothes we wear and directly impact, right, some of those considerations for other people, both in the United States and globally, right, our contribution to that sort of inequality. And poverty is is harder to see in some ways. And I think we can think about similar themes when it comes to South African democracy. I think the the, I don't want to say failing, but the stumbling of South African democracy is, is in some ways more visible, just because of the way that that it is stumbling. And I but I think we can see similar themes right in the United States. And it may not be around water access, or electricity access and kind of state services, but it can be about the the kind of Tiny Fractures that are emerging in some of our political institutions. And so I think that we have cause for despair.
Cyanne Loyale
But I think that in turning to South Africa, we have cause for great hope. I think we've learned that that strong moral leadership right can be can be really important. I think we've learned that you know, on key is calling, you know, bless it are the translators, right to the people that are helping us bridge the gap. I think there's a role here for the importance of news media and great podcast. And I like the ones that the recording Institute is is putting together, this idea of getting to know each other I think is really important. And so I draw hope in, you know, the people who stand up to some of these oppressions, and I think that if there's enough of them, we can be successful and triumphant as we move forward.
Jenna Spinelle
Well, it's I am this has been a fascinating episode. I've learned so much from you and from Antjie. And I hope that our listeners have too. For the entire Democracy Works team. I'm Jenna Spinelle. Thanks for listening.